Episode 6

What is science? with Dr Kyle Gibson - The Shape of Dialogue # 6

A recent "letter to the editor" penned by seven University of Auckland professors was published in The Listener, a national magazine in New Zealand - see below. The letter, In Defence of Science, stated that a Ministry of Education working group's proposed curriculum changes were "perpetuating misunderstandings of science". The letter objected to the working groups assumptions that "science has been used to support the dominance of ethnocentric views (among which its use as a rationale for colonialisation of Māori and the suppression of Māori and the suppression of Māori knowledge); and the notion that science is a Western European invention and itself evidence of European dominance over Māori and other indigenous peoples".

The professor's letter went on to say that science is universal, it emerged from various parts of the globe and is distinct from indigenous ways of knowing. It stated that "indigenous knowledge is critical for the preservation and perpetuation of culture in local practices in place key roles in management and policy. However, in the discovery of empirical, universal truths, it falls far short of what we can define as science itself".

The aftermath of the publication of the professor's letter resulted in one of the letter's authors resigning as Dean of the University's School of Psychology. The University's Vice-Chancellor stated the letter caused "considerable hurt and dismay" among staff and students. While the academics are free to express their views, I want to make it clear that they do not represent the views of the University of Auckland."

Also, an open letter, with 1100 signatories, repudiating the Listener letter stated they "categorically" disagreed with the views expressed in the professor's Listener letter. It went on to say, "Indigenous knowledges - in this case, mātauranga - are not lesser to other knowledge systems. Indeed, indigenous ways of knowing, including mātauranga, have always included methodologies that overlap with 'Western' understandings of the scientific method. However, mātauranga is far more than just equivalent to or equal to 'Western' science. It offers ways of viewing the world that are unique and complementary to other knowledge systems." Red it here....

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdRwHTSKURHaalXZSNo2oluN9OjuDxK6UDG4gb6t7NhAPO3Zg/viewform

In this podcast, Dr Kyle Gibson investigates the veracity of these claims and what constitutes science and how this disagreement can be resolved.

Dr Kyle Gibson holds a PhD in philosophy, a Graduate Diploma in secondary teaching, a Bachelor of Arts with honours in philosophy, a Bachelor of Arts in history and political science, and a Bachelor of Science in geography and philosophy, all from the University of Canterbury. Dr Gibson works as a tutor in the University of Canterbury's philosophy department. He began his teaching career in 2013 as a history teacher at Unity High School in Khartoum in Sudan before returning to New Zealand in 2014, where he taught a wide array of subjects at Ao Tawhiti Unlimited Discovery in Christchurch. Dr Gibson is passionate about promoting philosophy in primary and secondary education, arguing that doing so is crucial to improving political and intellectual discourse in the public sphere. Kyle recently wrote an opinion piece "Science can't be Pākehā or Māori, it's just science" published in stuff.co.nz. Read it here.....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/125940471/science-cant-be-pkeh-or-mori-its-just-science

The Listener "letter to the editor".... https://medium.com/@shapeofdialogue/in-defence-of-science-e8da054219cc

IN DEFENCE OF SCIENCE

A recent report from a government NCEA working group on proposed changes to the Māori school curriculum aims “to ensure parity for mātauranga Māori with the other bodies of knowledge credentialed by NCEA (particularly Western/Pākehā epistemologies)”. It includes the following description as part of a new course: 

“It promotes discussion and analysis of the ways in which science has been used to support the dominance of Eurocentric views (among which, its use as a rationale for colonisation of Māori and the suppression of Māori knowledge); and the notion that science is a Western European invention and itself evidence of European dominance over Māori and other indigenous peoples.”

This perpetuates disturbing misunderstandings of science emerging at all levels of education and in science funding. These encourage mistrust of science. Science is universal, not especially Western European. It has origins in ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, ancient Greece, and later India, with significant contributions in mathematics, astronomy and physics from mediaeval Islam, before developing in Europe and later the United States with a strong presence across Asia. Science itself does not colonise. It has been used to aid colonisation, as have literature and art. However, science also provides immense good, as well as greatly enhanced understanding of the world. Science is helping us battle worldwide crises such as CoVid, global warming, carbon pollution, biodiversity loss and environmental degradation. Such science is informed by the united efforts of many nations and cultures. We increasingly depend on science, perhaps for our very survival. The future of our world, and our species, cannot afford mistrust of science.

Indigenous knowledge is critical for the preservation and perpetuation of culture and local practices, and plays key roles in management and policy. However, in the discovery of empirical, universal truths, it falls far short of what we can define as science itself. To accept it as the equivalent of science is to patronise and fail indigenous populations; better to ensure that everyone participates in the world’s scientific enterprises. Indigenous knowledge may indeed help advance scientific knowledge in some ways, but it is not science.

Kendall Clements, Professor, School of Biological Sciences, University of Auckland

Garth Cooper, FRSNZ, School of Biological Sciences, University of Auckland

Michael Corballis, FRSNZ, Emeritus Professor, School of Psychology, University of Auckland

Douglas Elliffe, Professor, School of Psychology, University of Auckland

Robert Nola, FRSNZ, Emeritus Professor, Department of Philosophy, University of Auckland

Elizabeth Rata Professor, Critical Studies in Education, University of Auckland 

John Werry, Emeritus Professor, Department of Psychological Medicine, University of Auckland

Music: Kyrie from Bach B Minor Mass conducted by Sir John Eliot Gardiner

Buy it here: https://music.apple.com/gb/album/mass-in-b-minor-bwv-232-cum-sancto-spiritu/1053521016

About the Podcast

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Michael Goldwater

Michael Goldwater is a New Zealand podcaster and host of The Shape of Dialogue, a podcast exploring the foundational principles underpinning well-functioning societies.

Michael's prominent international and New Zealand guests discuss important issues of the day, illuminating what societies require to function effectively and cohesively.

In 2023, Richard Dawkins (the world's most famous scientist) personally asked Michael to host and interview him for his New Zealand speaking tour.

Michael has also interviewed other significant world-renowned thinkers, including Steven Pinker (twice), James Flynn, Lawrence Krauss (twice), Jerry Coyne, Jonathan Rauch, Helen Joyce, Peter Boghossian, Toby Young, Sall Grover, James Lindsay and numerous international and New Zealand scientists and thought leaders.

Michael's interviews are characterised by civil discourse and a genuine curiosity about a diverse range of topics. His podcasts serve as forums for thoughtful explorations of complex societal issues, aiming to inspire listeners to engage in meaningful conversations, consider more than one viewpoint to bridge ideological divides and take a fresh look at subjects that sometimes are not seeing the light of day in other media.

Michael's esteemed guests have discussed a wide range of engaging topics, including science, Indigenous knowledge, education, human rights, women's rights, philosophy, the classics, liberty, free speech, communism, epistemology, trans-ideology, censorship, language and rhetoric. 

Michael is also a musician, educator, businessman and an accomplished photographer. His art photography can be viewed at www.michaelgoldwater.photography

In 2015, Michael founded and led Stop Stealing Our Harbour, an environmental advocacy group dedicated to protecting Auckland's beautiful Waitematā Harbour from continued industrial reclamation. He has been a prominent voice in the national conversation around this issue and has successfully campaigned to stop thousands of tons of concrete from being poured into Auckland's famous harbour.